Et brev fra Jeseph Smiths mor.

Mormonkirken i Utah bekendtgjorde for nylig opdagelsen af et vigtigt historisk dokument - et brev der tilsyneladende er skrevet af Lucy Mack Smith, moder til Joseph Smith junior.
Brevet er dateret den 23. januar 1829 og skrevet omkring et år før Joseph Smith udgav Mormons bog. Lucy Mack Smith skriver til sin svigerinde: 'Det er mig en glæde at berette for dig om en storslået gerning som Herren har virket i vor familie, for han har gjort sine stier kendt for Joseph i drømme, og det har behaget Gud at vise ham hvor han kunne grave for at finde en gammel optegnelse indskrevet på plader lavet af det pure guld, og dette er han i stand til at oversætte.'
Ifølge kirkens historiker Dean Jessee 'viser [brevet] at familien Smith i begyndelsen, netop som tæppet går op for kirken i 1829, fortæller det samme som i deres historiske beretninger senere hen'. Han siger også at dette 'siger noget om troværdigheden af Joseph Smiths og hans moders historie'.
Mens brevet synes at undergrave den teori visse kritikere har haft om at Smith først skrev bogen som en roman og senere hævdede at den var inspireret, gør det i virkeligheden meget lidt for at befæste bogen som værende af ægte, guddommelig oprindelse. Endnu vigtigere er det at udtalelsen fra Smiths moder ikke er virkelig overbevisende i betragtning af den advarsel apostelen Paulus kom med i Galaterne 1:8: 'Men selv om vi eller en engel fra himmelen skulle forkynde noget andet evangelium for jer end det som vi har forkyndt for jer, lad ham være forbandet.'
- King James Version

Jamen, ftg dog. Man må da ikke sådan læse andres breve:-)
Nå, spøg til side... nu har du en del gange kommet med dette skrifsted:
"Galaterne 1:8: 'Men selv om vi eller en engel fra himmelen skulle forkynde noget andet evangelium for jer end det som vi har forkyndt for jer, lad ham være forbandet.'
- King James Version"
Der står altså ikke rigtigt noget om, at engle ikke mere må komme med budskaber til folk! Der står blot, at sandheden ikke er i modstrid med det evangelium apostlene forkyndte! Så medmindre englene der besøgte Joseph Smith kom med et budskab i modstrid med apostlenes lære, så er der vel ikke rigtigt noget problem!
Så tror jeg du lægger lidt for meget i ordet "drømme" i Lucy's brev. For det første var hun iflg. mormonmytologien ikke et øjenvidne, så hun kunne såmænd have kaldt det besøg fra dæmoner uden at det ville have nogen betydning for troværdigheden af Joseph Smiths historie! Hun giver vel ret beset kun udtryk for sin egen opfattelse af tingene.
Omvendt mener jeg ikke brevet viser meget om, hvordan Joseph opfattede Mormons Bog i "starten" dertil er det dateret lidt for tæt på mormonkirkens begyndelse i 1830! Så min holdning er vel nærmest, at brevet ikke rigtigt tilføjer noget nyt af betydning!
Forøvrigt har jeg ikke hørt om brevet før, hvilket undrer mig. Er du sikker på du ikke er ude med en halv vind?

Oplysningerne stammer fra mormonkirken, så om man kan stole på dem ved jeg ikke, men du kan jo spørge mormonkirkens historiker, Dean Jessee.

men vedrørende ovennævnte brev skriver du:
"Galaterne 1:8: 'Men selv om vi eller en engel fra himmelen skulle forkynde noget andet evangelium for jer end det som vi har forkyndt for jer, lad ham være forbandet.'
- King James Version"
"Der står altså ikke rigtigt noget om, at engle ikke mere må komme med budskaber til folk! Der står blot, at sandheden ikke er i modstrid med det evangelium apostlene forkyndte! Så medmindre englene der besøgte Joseph Smith kom med et budskab i modstrid med apostlenes lære, så er der vel ikke rigtigt noget problem!" (citat slut)
Altså, medmindre englene der besøgte Joseph Smith kom med et budskab i modstrid med apostlenes lære...
Ja, men gjorde de det? Prøv at lægge mærke til hvad Apostelen Johannes skrev:
"Jeg vidner for enhver som hører ordene i denne skriftrulles profeti: Hvis nogen føjer noget til dette, vil Gud til ham føje de plager der er skrevet om i denne skriftrulle; og hvis nogen tager noget bort fra ordene i skriftrullen med denne profeti, vil Gud tage hans lod bort fra livets træer og ud af den hellige by, ting der er skrevet om i denne skriftrulle." (Åbenbaringen 22:18-19)
At tilføje Mormons bog - "Another Testament of Jesus Christ" er bestemt at "lægge noget til den skriftrulle", som Apostelen Johannes skrev om.

Undskyld, men det er altså noget gennemført vrøvl. Den skriftrulle Johannes taler om, at jo skriftrullen til Johannes Åbenbaring. Udfra dit eget ræssonement skulle Bibelens andre 65 bøger så også være ugudelige!!!
Dit argument holder ikke vand- du bliver stadig nødt til at påvise, at englenes budskab til Joseph Smith var i modstrid med evangeliet, før du har bevist noget som helst. Indtil videre har du kun bevist, at du har en temmelig begrænset (selektiv?) bibelforståelse!

Nu har jeg fundet ud af, hvad det er for et brev der er tale om. Og det er et falsum, skabt af en skaber af falske samlerobjekter Mark Hofmann. Hofmann begik senere mord for at beskytte sine økonomiske interesser og sidder i fængsel.
Men forinden havde han nået at malke mormonkirken for et større millionbeløb med sine mange interessante "fund" angående den tidlige mormonkirke. Blandt andet det berømte "salamanderbrev", som forklarede, at Joseph slet ikke havde talt med Gud, men at det var en salamander han i virkeligheden havde mødt.
Brevet du omtaler er blot et af Hofmann's mange falske breve. Når jeg ikke lige huskede det med det samme, var det fordi jeg opfattede dit indlæg som en nyhed- medens Hofmann historien efterhånden har nogle år på bagen.....
Lidt irriterende, at du aldrig kommer med en kildeangivelse. Havde du gjort det, ville datoen på dit indlæg fra "Vågn Op" (gætter jeg på) med det samme have vist mig, at brevet hører under Hofmann's gamle svindelnumre!

Det følgende er nogle af de facts, som beviser at brevet er et falsum. Desværre er det lidt langt, men sådan er det jo, når en dygtig forfalsker skal afsløres:
According to the charges filed against Mark Hofmann, "on or about July 29, 1982, Mark Hofmann completed an agreement to sell to Brent Ashworth a document purported to be 'The Lucy Mack Smith' letter, dated January 23, 1829, in exchange for property valued at over $1,000.00."
In his interview in Sunstone, Lyn Jacobs said that Mr. Hofmann acquired the Lucy Smith letter through the cover trading business. This, of course, would mean that he would have paid very little money for the letter. When Brent Ashworth was asked how much Hofmann originally paid for the letter, he replied: "...I believe...$25 was the figure." Alvin Rust, however, testified that Hofmann borrowed "$15,000" from him "for the purchase of the 'Lucy Mack Smith letter.' " (Deseret News, April 22, 1986) In any case, Hofmann later sold the letter to Mr. Ashworth for items Ashworth valued "at around $33,000." The Deseret News for May 7, 1986, reported:
"Ashworth said he was initially impressed with Hofmann. Hofmann arranged the purchase of a letter purportedly written by Lucy Mack Smith, the mother of Joseph Smith Jr., founder of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In July 1982, Ashworth exchanged six documents valued at $33,000—including letters written by Benjamin Franklin, Andrew Jackson and John Brown—for the Smith letter.
"Ashworth exuded enthusiasm for document collecting as he spoke on the witness stand of his great finds, and said he was thrilled to obtain the letter.
" 'I didn't know at the time that Lucy Mack Smith could write. This letter is extremely rare,' Ashworth testified."
Brent Ashworth testified that he wanted to know where Hofmann had obtained the letter, but he was unable to obtain an answer: "...after my purchase of the Lucy Mack Smith letter, I guess my curiosity was getting to me on where exactly the letter came from, and I continued to pursue that, although quite unsuccessfully as to the dealer and so on..."
At any rate, the Mormon leaders rejoiced over the letter and it was hailed as a vindication of Joseph Smith's work. The Church's publication, The Ensign, Oct. 1982, pages 70-72, printed the following:
"A previously unknown 1829 letter by Lucy Mack Smith to her sister-in-law in which the mother of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., discusses her son's work has been made available to the Church Historical Department.
"The letter, dated 23 January 1829, is 'the first [earliest] known dated document relating to the history of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,' said Heber C. Wolsey, managing director of the Public Communications Department of the Church, in a news conference held Monday, August 23, in Church Historical Department offices....
"The letter was acquired by Brent F. Ashworth, a Provo, Utah, member of the Church from a private collector who obtained it from another collector in the eastern United States....
"After closely examining a copy of the letter, Dean Jessee, senior research historian of the Joseph Fielding Smith Institute of Church History at Brigham Young University, said, 'The letter appears to be Lucy Mack Smith's handwriting...
"According to Brother Jessee, the letter is significant to the Church for several reasons. 'It is probably the earliest signed and dated letter dealing with events surrounding the Restoration, and it is also probably the oldest known dated document of any type—excluding newspapers—prior to the organization of the Church that deals with the restoration of the Church.' In 1980 the Church received a copy of a transcript of characters thought to have been taken from the gold plates...but the document is undated....
"The letter, said Brother Jessee, 'shows that right at the beginning, when the curtain first goes up in 1829, the Smiths are talking about and saying the same things that they say in their histories later on, in Joseph's history beginning in 1838 and in Lucy's in 1845."
On August 24, 1982, Seventh East Press printed the following:
"The letter mentions Joseph Smith's being led to the location of the gold Book of Mormon plates by an angel. 'This pretty much knocks in the head the old evolution theory of Joseph's doctrinal development,' Jessee said, alluding to the concept that Joseph Smith invented the stories of the First Vision, origin of the Book of Mormon, etc., later in his life in order to vindicate his prophetic calling. 'Here's Lucy, repeating the Moroni story in 1829, when the curtain of Church history was just going up. Obviously Joseph didn't think all this up later on.' "
Actually, a careful examination of the letter reveals that it says absolutely nothing about the First Vision, nor does it refer to "being led to the location of the gold Book of Mormon plates by an angel." It only says that "the Lord...made his paths known to Joseph in dreams and it pleased God to show him where he could dig to obtain an ancient record engraven upon plates made of pure gold..." While the letter is not as faith promoting as some Mormon apologists would have us believe, it does at least have God directing Joseph Smith to the gold plates. The Salamander letter, on the other hand, has Smith communicating with an "old spirit" and entirely omits all mention of God.

(click to enlarge)
A photograph of the letter Lucy Smith was supposed to have written in 1829.
To those of us who believe in the theory that Hofmann was planning to bring forth the lost 116 pages of the Book of Mormon, the Lucy Smith letter is extremely important. It is the only document accepted by the Church which seems to reveal anything concerning the contents of these missing pages. For instance, the printed Book of Mormon says that Lehi and his family left Jerusalem with a man named Ishmael and his family. Lucy Smith's letter adds that Ishmael was the brother of Lehi's wife. This would mean, of course, that Nephi and his brothers married their cousins when they "took the daughters of Ishmael to wife" (1 Nephi 16:7). The Church publication, The Ensign, page 70, commented about this matter:
"Of special interest to members of the Church are several details in the letter apparently from the lost 116 manuscript pages of the Book of Mormon....Lucy Mack Smith's understanding, described in this letter of January 1829, presumably came either from what she had read or heard from her son or from the material contained in the 116 lost manuscript pages. Sister Smith describes a synopsis of the manuscript's contents and the negative response by the people to the Smiths because of their beliefs."
Mark Hofmann's friend, Lyn Jacobs, also mentioned the matter: "...the Lucy Mack Smith letter was important because we have never had any verifiable notion of the contents of the 116 lost manuscript pages of the Book of Mormon. The reference to the contents of the 116 pages made the letter incredibly important to many people." (Sunstone, vol. 10, no. 8, page 16) The obvious implications of this matter seem rather clear—the Lucy Smith letter could be used to help validate the lost 116 pages of the Book of Mormon if they ever came forth. It seems like more than just coincidence that Mark Hofmann, who has openly stated that he has been searching for these lost pages, would find a letter which seems to reveal some of their contents.
The Lucy Smith letter may have some relationship with another letter written by Mrs. Smith which has been preserved by the Church. It was published many years ago in Scrap Book of Mormon Literature, vol. 1, by Ben E. Rich. On pages 543-45, we find a copy of a letter written by Lucy Smith to her brother, Solomon Mack on Jan. 6, 1831. We find the following in that letter:
"God...sent out a prophet named Lehi and commanded him to declare unto the people that unless they repented of their sins that the city would be destroyed, but they would not hear him,...the Lord commanded him to take his family, together with another man named Ishmael, and his family, and flee out of the city, and they were led by the hand of the Lord on to this continent...and the more wicked part of them being led by one of the sons of Lehi named Laman, arose up in rebellion against their brethren, and would not keep the commandments of God, therefore He sent a curse upon them, and caused a dark skin to come over them,..."
The reader will notice that there are a number of parallels in the letter sold by Mark Hofmann:
"...they descended from a prophet of the Lord whose name was Lehi he fled from Jerusalem with his family and also his wife's brother's family a few days before Nebuechadnezzar besieged the City...Lehi prophesied unto the Jews...that they must repent of their sins yet they would not,...God commanded the people of Lehi to get out of Jerusalem and flee into the wilderness and at length they were directed to enter upon the Land of America: now a part of the people of Lehi whose head was named Laman a son of Lehi became savage and they sought to exterminate their more virtuous brethren who were called the people of Nephi therefore God cast off the people of Laman and he cursed them with a dark skin..."
Back in 1982 Dean Jessee noticed some similarities between the two letters and commented: " '...It is very similar to another letter that is dated 1831, when she wrote to her brother Solomon. The handwriting on the two documents is the same.' " (The Ensign, Oct. 1982, p. 70) While the parallels could be used as evidence to show that Lucy Smith wrote both letters, under the circumstances, it seems more likely that Mark Hofmann or one of his friends obtained a copy of the 1831 letter and that it provided structural material for the 1829 letter.
It is interesting to note that although Dean Jessee believed the Lucy Mack Smith letter was authentic, when he published it he did note that the letter showed no evidence of handling and that it was addressed to an address that had been incorrect for nearly six years: "...there is a question whether Mary ever received the letter from Lucy: In the first place, the letter was part of a large collection of letters valued for their postmarks and may have come from a dead letter file. Furthermore, although separated at the fold, the letter shows no evidence of handling or wear. And finally, the letter is addressed to Royalton, Vermont, whereas the Pierces had moved to Lebanon, New Hampshire, in 1823, nearly six years prior to the postmark date of Lucy's letter." (Brigham Young University Studies, Fall 1982, page 455, footnote 4)
Document expert George Throckmorton examined the document, and at the preliminary hearing he reported: "There was cracking on that letter, on the ink." William Flyn also testified concerning the "extensive ink cracking again throughout this document...There was also that ink running...visible under ultraviolet on the last page of the document." Mr. Flyn concluded: "I don't believe it's genuine."
Fundet som en del af historien om Hofmann's forfalskninger her: http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/trackingch6b.htm

1) ”....it seems more likely” that Mark Hofmann or one of his friends obtained a copy of the 1831 letter and that it provided structural material for the 1829 letter.

It is interesting to note that although Dean Jessee believed the Lucy Mack Smith letter was authentic, when he published it he did note that the letter showed no evidence of handling and that it was addressed to an address that had been incorrect for nearly six years:
2) "...there is a question whether Mary ever received the letter from Lucy:

In the first place, the letter was part of a large collection of letters valued for their postmarks and may have come from a dead letter file. Furthermore, although separated at the fold, the letter shows no evidence of handling or wear. And finally, the letter is addressed to Royalton, Vermont, whereas the Pierces had moved to Lebanon, New Hampshire, in 1823, nearly six years prior to the postmark date of Lucy's letter." (Brigham Young University Studies, Fall 1982, page 455, footnote 4)
Document expert George Throckmorton examined the document, and at the preliminary hearing he reported: "There was cracking on that letter, on the ink." William Flyn also testified concerning the "extensive ink cracking again throughout this document...There was also that ink running...visible under ultraviolet on the last page of the document."
3) ” Mr. Flyn concluded: "I don't believe it's genuine."
citat slut.
Ja, ja again, man kan jo tro og mene hvad som helst. Beviser? det er en anden sag. Det er et spørgsmål om hvad man vælger.
I USA ville ”tvivlen” komme ”den anklagede ( brevet)” til gode.
Enoch

Bibelens kanon var fuldført i slutningen af det første århundrede, og Åbenbaringen 22:18 er skrevet, for at vise at der intet måtte føjes til Guds ord. Det var apostelen Johannes der skrev det, og han var den sidste apostel.
Paulus skrev, som du selv har nævnt:
"Men selv om vi eller en engel fra himmelen forkyndte jer noget som en god nyhed afvigende fra det vi har forkyndt jer som en god nyhed, så lad ham være forbandet." (Gal.1:8)
Mormons bog er blevet overdraget til Joseph Smith af en engel, der ikke er kendt fra Bibelen, nemlig engelen Moroni omkring 1829.
Men hvad siger Bibelen?
Bibelen siger:
"Og intet under, for Satan selv giver sig ud for at være en lysets engel. Det er derfor intet stort om hans tjenere også giver sig ud for at være retfærdigheds tjenere. Men deres endeligt vil komme til at svare til deres gerninger." (2.Korinther 11:14-15)

så viser det noget om Mormons bog.
http://debat.sol.dk/show.fcgi?category=6&conference=217&posting=464551